Should you date a guy who doesn’t see his kids?

date guy doesn't see his kids

In 411 BC, ancient Greek playwright Aristophanes staged Lysistrata, a story about a Athenian woman who ends the interminable Peloponnesian War between Athens and Sparta by convincing the women of Greece to withhold sex (and seize the treasury) from the men, who of course make all the decisions about war and money.

Hilarious? Yes.

Powerful and possible message that women can change the world with our pussies?

Yes, indeed. 

Disturbing fact: the majority of fathers who are not in romantic relationships with the children's mothers, are not actively involved with the kids. In fact, Pew found that a full 78 percent of dads who live separately from their children, see the kids less than once per week.

That means that just 22 percent of dads who do not live in the same house as their kids are actively involved. 

That is bad.

It is also complicated.

One of the most posts on Wealthysinglemommy.com is ‘The real reason your ex doesn't see the kids' about the so-very-common and heartbreaking reality that men are systematically marginalized in family courts — and parental alienation, a form of abuse in which one parent turns a child against the other parent, is shockingly common. Read more: Parental alienation resource center.

It is bad for the kids, of course, because they miss out on a close relationship with their father.

It is bad for the moms, who do not enjoy the emotional, logistical or time-off afforded by a co-parent. This, too, hurts kids, who then are more likely to have an exhausted and stressed-out mom who is worried about the effects of an absentee dad on her children.

Absentee fatherhood is bad for the dads, too. Whatever the circumstances are, they miss out on parenting, close relationships with their children, and the pride of knowing they are upholding their parental responsibilities.

The more men do not step up and father their children, the worst it makes it for all men and fathers. This becomes the norm, a horrible norm, and men are not given the benefit of doubt in family court, in society or on the playground.

Further, the fewer active dads around, the fewer active dads our children see — and as a society we stand to have this trend perpetuated forever and ever.

Bottom line: Absentee fathers are bad for everyone, including society itself.


Listen to my Like a Mother episode about this topic:


If you read the comments in ‘The real reason your ex doesn't see the kids,' you will hear all kinds of stories — heart-breaking stories from guys claiming their devotion to their children, but forced alienation by unjust courts and vindictive mothers. There are also stories from moms who claim it is for the best the dad is not around, because of abuse, addiction or roller-coaster inconsistency. Incarceration is another common reason fathers are not active in their kids' lives.

Of course, every case is different, there are plenty of grey areas, and it is true that sometimes parents are best not involved with their kids.

But this is what I will tell you, and you, woman, know to be true:

sell engagement ring

If some crazy person or circumstance stood between me seeing my kids often, I would fight like mighty hell to change that.

I would fight because I want to be an intimate part of their lives.

I would fight because that is my moral obligation as a mother.

I would fight because I would need my children to see me fight for them. Because I would worry that my not fighting would be even more painful for them than not being involved every day or every week.

I would fight because fighting for my relationship with my kids would be fighting for all parents' relationship with their children — and against a messed-up court system, or insane and malicious parents who try to keep the other parent away must not be allowed to persist.

And so when you meet a man — a nice and hot and successful or funny and thoughtful and sexy man — and he says he has kids, and you find out he doesn't see them so much, and he tells you all these reasons why, what do you do?

Do you excuse him? Blame the system/judge/bitch ex/his job/society for his absence?

Do you tell yourself, ‘He will be different with any kids we have together — because I will change him.'

Do you think, ‘It is just a fun fling. His personal life is his business.'

If you care about those kids he doesn't see — care as a person, a woman, as a mother (aspiring or actual), a member of society, here is what you do:

You will not see him.

You will not respond to his texts.

You will not fuck him.

You will know that if is a bad dad to his current kids, he will be a bad dad to future kids.

You will say: “It makes me uncomfortable that you don't see your kids.”

Or: “Frankly, I don't like the fact your kids are not your priority.”

You will not listen to his excuses.

You will just shut that down.

And you will encourage your girlfriends to do the same. And your cousin and sister and colleagues, too.

Before long, you and me and all of the women of the world will be like Lysistrata and her fellow women, changing the world with our pussies.

And that is good.

Related shared parenting posts:

My kid's dad isn't involved and I don't know what to say

The real reason your ex doesn't see the kids

Close the pay gap? Get dads involved? 50-50 visitation and no child support

What to tell your kids when their dad isn't involved

Shared parenting research (it really is best for kids)

Should you date a man who doesn't have equal time with his kids?

Bittersweet success on the good-dads, equal-parenting and dating front: a new-ish friend came to dinner the other night. While this sexy, successful, late-30s, never-married, no kids, NYC woman and I drank rose', and my kids inhaled the Magnolia cupcakes she brought, we chatted, of course, about dating.

My friend recounted a recent horror story …. after a fantastic first date and fantastic follow-up texting, a potential romance went down in flames. Not only did he fail to mention until date No. 2 that he was a father, he bragged about his every-other-weekend, Wednesday dinner schedule with his kids as being a really involved dad.
Background: this woman has never heard my platform about my call to expect men to be equal parents. From what I know, she doesn't have any personal ax to grind re: divorce, single dads, or parenting.

Over their Mexican dinner she told him:

“First of all, you hid the fact that you are a dad. I don't care that you have kids, I care that you lied. Second, every other weekend is not an involved dad. That is a part-time dad.”

This as a huge win.  Without any baggage on the subject, she just got it, and she called him out on it, and women, moms, kids and fathers are all better for these sorts of stances.

To this, I will hold myself to a higher standard in what I will tolerate in dating, and actively tell men who fail their children that I will not date them. I recently saw for a few months a man who actively bragged about his professional success, filled his Instagram feed with pics of his shopping sprees, luxury travel, videos of him training at a high-end gym with a sexy personal trainer, and pricey downtown dinners. He also spoke lovingly about his teenage daughter, an affection that resonated with me as very authentic.

However, this man's very expensive apartment (waterfall wall in the lobby, all white walls, natch, and the requisite bachelor's modern, black leather couch), had just one bedroom — a room he would lend to his daughter when she visited every second weekend. Not only could he not be bothered to take time from his fabulous life to actively co-parent his kid, he chose many material indulgences over making room in his home and life for his child. What did this tell the girl about her father's devotion to her? What did this say about him as a man?

This one was not a long or serious affair, and I called it off with: “We're not a romantic match” then unfollowed the buffoonery that is his social media.

Next time I will follow my friend's lead, and I suggest you, do, too.

Say: “I can't be involved with a man who is not an equal parent to his kids.”

You will hear him out when he tells you about unfair family courts, and malicious exes, because those are real and powerful things. But if he has not or does not actively fight to be an equal parent, you're done. And you tell him.

And I, his kids, your kids, all kids, women, men, fathers and mothers and society, we all thank you.

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Related documentary and books on shared parenting:

Recommended shared parenting documentary: Divorce Corp

Kickass Single Mom, Be Financially Independent, Discover Your Sexiest Self, and Raise Fabulous, Happy Children, By: Emma Johnson

Blend, The Secret to Co-Parenting and Creating a Balanced Family, By: Mashonda Tifrere

Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex: What to Do When Your Ex-Spouse Tries to Turn the Kids Against You, By: by Amy J. L. Baker, PhD and Paul R Fine, LCSW

Divorce Poison: How to Protect Your Family from Bad-mouthing and Brainwashing, By: Dr. Richard A. Warshak

About Emma Johnson

Emma Johnson is a veteran money journalist, noted blogger, bestselling author and an host of the award-winning podcast, Like a Mother with Emma Johnson. A former Associated Press Financial Wire reporter and MSN Money columnist, Emma has written for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Forbes, Glamour, Oprah.com, U.S. News, Parenting, USA Today and others. Her #1 bestseller, The Kickass Single Mom (Penguin), was named to the New York Post's ‘Must Read” list.Emma regularly comments on issues of modern families, gender equality, divorce, sex and motherhood for outlets like CNN, Headline News, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Fox & Friends, CNBC, NPR, TIME, MONEY, O, The Oprah Magazine and The Doctors. She was named Parents magazine’s “Best of the Web,” “Top 15 Personal Finance Podcasts” by U.S. News, and a “Most Eligible New Yorker” by New York Observer.A popular speaker, Emma presented at the United Nations Summit for Gender Equality. Read more about Emma here.

82 Comments

  1. Erno on February 14, 2017 at 10:43 pm

    https://www.wealthysinglemommy.com/dads-explain-dont-see-kids/
    Here is another situation, very close to home for me at least
    Thanks Emma for the story, but I think that this article was about deadbeat dads.. I’ve had one and even though I can’t see my boy I don’t think I could be judged as one. If I had a choice I’d see him every day. But I guess I’m not allowed to be happy ever again

    • Erno on February 15, 2017 at 12:11 am

      Oh but hang on Emma.. You are the author of that story too. What happened? Have you actually listened to the silent sufferers?
      I mean please don’t get me wrong, I don’t mean to insult you in any way whatsoever. You’re entitled to your opinion as well as I’m to mine. Deadbeat vs. deprived is a very different story

  2. Tobe on February 15, 2017 at 9:47 pm

    100% right. In my case I am so angry none of his family co-workers friends or girlfriends call him out on his behaviour. They make him out to be a great guy and accept he left his family because he wants to find happiness. He sees the kids 2x/month. I know that’s more than others but it should be a crime. The court said I can onlycomplain if he won’t pay support but they can’t force him to be active in his kids lives. That’s disgusting. My babies love their Dad. I’ve told them to love and accept him as is. That he’s dealing with his own issues… But really he doesn’t deserve their love. And I’m pissed that others don’t see what a selfish jerk he is!!

  3. Good Dad on April 27, 2017 at 5:16 am

    I’m a divorced Dad who is very active with my teenage Son. I have given up on dating. All the women I have dated want no parts of a Father who cares about his child. Most middle aged women do not want anything to do with another Woman’s offspring!!!! Period!!!!!! I guess it’s in the genes? I have given up on dating and marriage. I rather be single than lose my relationship with my Son!!!!

    • Happily married on November 23, 2017 at 11:00 am

      I’m one of those women who loves only but my own children. Why I must I be made responsible or accountable for another woman’s child. I expect no one to fit my children in her schedule even if my baby’s father could marry. I respect their marriage as much as I would not expect no uninvited guests to gate crush in my marriage. Tough luck to children born out of wedlock…you will remain bastards and loose privileges of legit children.

      • Jud on May 7, 2018 at 2:35 pm

        You are a horrible and judgmental woman. Karma will serve its menu on you, twat!

        • Suzi on March 27, 2019 at 11:31 pm

          This one’s a charmer… men leave their kids all the time for their own selfish needs and she called them out on it, don’t read the post if you don’t like the reality of most men. This country is growing up children who have no idea of what it is to have a real father…it seems there are men who like to call people “twat” because intelligence is lacking and that’s all they got – insults. Sad for your children… teaching them all the wrong things. This is an article that shows another side that you don’t want to see in yourself, that’s why you insult – it hit a nerve.
          Try understanding another side where this is a reality, fathers don’t want their children and abandon & neglect them – it’s the reality. Be better is the message… not name calling and bullying…. so old and tired method

  4. Missy on October 25, 2017 at 4:17 am

    Women are the vindictive crazy ones in these type situations. Women are the ones that don’t let the fathers see the child(ren). Men are the ones paying for the child due to the women being lazy, not wanting to work, and expecting the man to dress, feed, bath, shelter, “watch” them, PAY everything…. yet women everywhere are ALWAYS blaming the man. Like yo, dumb bitch, odds are you took all the fathers privileges away, and then complain about it. Single moms complaining out there…. YOU MADE YOUR BED SO SLEEP IN IT

    • DS on July 31, 2018 at 6:09 am

      Boy did you hit my ex right square on. She has a RN license. capable of making 80k to start and is a wealth fare queen.

  5. Kristin on November 6, 2017 at 11:28 am

    Emma, this article rocks! I have shut that shit a couple of times back when I was dating. One guy saw his kids every other Saturday… they lived less than 5 miles from him! Another saw his son once per month! They gave me every excuse you can think of! I was like “nope no excuses! Bye!” The one that got me the most was a guy I went out with 4 times… he was so handsome, polite, sexy, good career etc. oh my gosh, I was falling for him so hard. Then he told me his ex girlfriend was 8 months pregnant! I was livid! What floored me the most was all the excuses and how nonchalant he was about dating me and having another woman pregnant at the same time. I told him to hit the road! He still pursued me relentlessly… trying to convince me to stay with him. I told him he was crazy! What kind of woman dates a man that has another woman pregnant? Who am I to distract you and your ex from trying to co parent together? Me dating him would just complicate things for him, his ex, and mostly importantly his kid! I thought “wow you put all this effort into dating me… now if you could only put all this time, effort and energy into being a dad…you would be an amazing father!” It was a no brainer for me to dump him immediately… even though I was totally into him… I had to do it… I had to do it for his kid… and in my book kids always come first…

  6. Happily married on November 23, 2017 at 10:52 am

    Mine had a money transaction relationship but never acknowledged them. I am happily married to him for more than twenty years. We are envied of our loving warm home he gives to us. I am glad he doesn’t have any relationship with them. He’s all ours. Bastards are not even wanted by the heavens as the Bible proclaimed and how do I expect him to love children of shame and lust, hence illegitimate. Tough luck.

    • Jud on May 7, 2018 at 2:39 pm

      You are a horrible, insensitive and judgemental woman. Those are his kids.
      You are an abomination because you keep on using the Bible to spew hate and rejection. Karma will get you, brainless twat.

  7. Georgia on May 27, 2018 at 4:03 pm

    I did the same mistake I felt over this guy, he was handsome, funny, had a good profesional job but didn’t see his kid much. His kid lived very far away (he moved for work somewhere else), he did visit him but not much. I excused him because he sent a lot of child support to his ex, so financially he was being more than generous. Also, the ex had a very complicated family setup that I used as an excuse to forgive him. Why I did it? I felt in love and then I wanted to believe everything. I was myself quite attractive at the time I started with him, I had other guys, so I was not desperate for a relationship. I am still amazed about how I fell into that. Myself, an experienced women which I always had good ex partners and ending up with a guy like that, which it was the worst I had. Well, bottom line, he did the same to me. He abandoned me and my child. So, any women thinking about doing this, think twice. Excellent article. A pity I didn’t read it before!

  8. tracy on July 15, 2018 at 4:16 am

    Personaly I think there are some good guys out there who get worn down by the system and find it exhausting swimming against the tide. They will fight but some women fight harder to ensure the fathers have no contact. In my case my ex left me for another woman when my son was 6, now 11. She made sure i found out about the affair by sending me an ‘annononous’ letter. She randomly sent me malicious texts and emails and strange trouble making messages on facebook. I found out she had sat in a Christmas service for my sons school before we split, so she could see what I looked like. She seems to me on the crazy side. We split and my ex denied he was with anyone. When I found out he was still with her things got very heated but I still never stopped him seeing his son. When he was going through his honeymoon phase with her he had no time for my son. One day telling him he would take him swimming and never turned up. Just one example. I almost begged him to see our son but it was very inconsistant. But i never stopped him. Eventually he wanted her to meet our son which i refused. Most will say it was nothing to do with me but I was still angry and upset with what she’d done. I still am as my ex knows all this and stays with her. I never stopped my ex access. After about 6 months i was wore down and gave in. Realising that i just needed to accept it. My ex took my son to meet her for hour and half ….. And she never asked to see him again so it was just anorher game to her. Since then ive told him until my son is old enough to choose he cannot see her. Despite all this i never stopped access for my ex. He picked him up from school but only if it suited him. Turns up on a sunday but only if he has nothing else planned. Takes him on holiday once a year but it can only be the week she is out the country. I let him know about football and rugby games/swimming galas/ parent meetings etc. Strangely he used to go while tensions were high between us but we get on fine now and have done for a while but he stopped going ? I welcome him on days he does see our son so he knows there are no hard feelings. And yet he has distanced himself further and further from our son. He has open access and can phone my son whenever he pleases. I refuse to start world war three over it. My son no longer gets upset over it. I feel a little sad for my ex as he is dominated by the other woman but that was his choice. She controls when he sees our son. My ex no longer sees my son in the week as he has to pick her daughter up from school. But I’ll stick with it. My son deserves to have some relationship with his dad albeit when it suits the new partner. I think what I’m trying to say is every situation is different. Every man is different. I really wanted my ex to be good role model to my son. He’s not a bad person and who am I to say what person he should be. I think he does the best he is capable of. I get more angry that he has open access but chooses not to see our son on a regular basis or even contact him and there are other dads out there that fight like lions but get nowhere. Its a sad world

  9. Daniel on July 29, 2018 at 5:43 pm

    Yes Tracy.
    I was tired of swimming against the tied for 4 years’ I speak 4 years post divorce in/out of court and a sum close to $30,00. Then my 13 year old daughter was dropped off by my ex for our weekend visit on Saturday morning. She walked in the door alone with tears running down her face, my came over to see my daughter and was present, she ran straight to my mom and said grammy can we talk and off to the bedroom off they went. My daughter and my mother were very close. They had secrets and my daughter always confided in my mother as her best friend. 20 minutes later they came out my daughter had stopped crying at that point. my mother said honey you are to tell your father what you just told me. my daughter was hesitant but came over to be and began to cry.
    What she said broke my heart forever. She said” Daddy you have to make mommy stop!” I said stop what honey. She informed me when she went home after my court appointed visitations her mother my ex would grill her all night wanting to know everything we said, she heard, and saw. MY DAUGHTER TOLD HER ITS NONE OF YOU BUSINESS. Then my ex would punish her by grounding her. Not letting her see or take calls from her friend. Even keep her home from school which she loved school. Theres so much more to this it would fill multiple pages but to make it shorter. On Thursday. I got a call from my ex where said to talk to my daughter she talking crazy. I asked to put her on the phone. She began crying and said daddy I can take all this any more. I just want to jump in front of a car and make it all stop. Talk about a broken heart breaking even more. I began to cry myself and talked her out of the suicidal ideation she was in and told her honey its will be ok daddy is going to take care of it. That Friday we had another child custody date with court. I walked in and asked if I could say something to the court and was grandest the opportunity. It didn’t;t matter if I informed the court of what was going on. The court wouldn’t and never has believed me. My ex had my daughter so petrified by god know what ever threats she made to her that it all would have to meaning.
    That day I did the hardest thing I have yet to do and endure in my life. I gave up my parental rights and gave full custody to my ex. the court wanted to know if I wanted visitation and I said I didn’t want contact with my daughter anymore. Know I know it’s hard to understand. I went through 10 years of emotional and psychological abuse from her. I stayed in our marriage because I loved my daughter more then my wife and knew she would need me and I din’t grow up in a divorced family and didn’t want her to.
    Basically I only had a few choices.
    1. Report what was happening to child protective services which I did and my daughter lied as then do to service and was so petrified by god knows what they dismissed the complaint.
    2. I could have kidnapped her and fled but that would be no life for a child.
    3. I could do the unthinkable but no matter how terrible a women she was I would never take my Childs mother way from her forever and have he has to come to visitation to see a father she would never have in her life.
    My mother offer to as she is in he 79’s but I told her I could loose her as I would need her to help me raise my daughter.
    4. I did the only thing I could. I figured if I took myself out of the picture my ex would be able to use her to her me and pursue her own goals what ever they were.
    I haven’t seen my daughter in 7 years now. During those 7 years she has poisoned and brainwashed her mind about me. I have tried to contact her many times but letters intercepted. Phone numbers and addresses changed.
    My daughter knows she lied on many occasions about what was going on. I didn’t want visitation because does anyone realize how hard it would be to look your father in the eyes knowing you lied forcing him to the only and best decision he could make to give her a childhood and a half normal life. She has been going to psychotherapy for some 7 tears now. Guilt is a very very powerful emotional thing to hold and deal with. She goes to psych not over me but her mother want what she did when she had the power to end it.
    I payed child support even though I never got to see her for years. I love her more then anything. I have a hole in my heart that never fills in. I sufferer each and every day. I don’t blame her she was but a child but I hope one day she will come to me and its all that keeps me alive. Every home I have ever met and dated once I told them this story it was the beginning of the end of that relationship.
    Now theres just one of my nightmares
    I have PTSD and can’t even be around certain things like playground. Xmass I hibernate. I have nightmare 3 days a week on average and go to therapy myself not to mention my little prescription drug friend the MD has me taking.
    I would give my live for her to this day instantly.

    • ADD on on July 29, 2018 at 6:27 pm

      I have to add to this as it eats me alive. I missed so many wonderful memories. Sacrifice, sometime you have to hurt the one you love to give them all the desire. If you never had something like this or similar happen to you, family member, or friend. If you don’t work in a field where you hear of this things then you simply not a member of the club! THEY HAPPEN TO MUCH. I new evil people existed in this world. You se it on the news. TV series, and magazines/books. I never have met such an evil women and hope I never do. I never liked people the prey on child abound many other things but any person that would use their own child to hurt someone else and drive them from there life is the lowest form of well you know. I never met a person with no conscious , empathy, or feelings in my life like my ex.

  10. Jon M on July 30, 2018 at 9:32 am

    HUH? If you think that you shouldn’t talk to man because he isn’t willing to turn himself into a felon to appease his ex -wife and see his children in some secure location and be party and watch the continual abuse by a scornful and malicous ex-wife, then you my dear are a very broken and lost person who needs to see a therapist. I know I saw one for many years as I contemplated suicide, as I contemplated looking into illegal ways of ending this heart wrenching and disgusting place of power by a woman in a broken judicial system. You need help my dear, the kind you can’t find with money or Jesus.

  11. Ds on July 31, 2018 at 6:13 am

    Emma Johnson is simply fueling the unjustness of the countries court system against fathers period. Join the Us to movement baby. Fathers need a fair shake that desire a fair shake.

  12. Jill on September 13, 2018 at 3:46 pm

    This is a disgusting article spewing hatred towards men. We as women have all the choices when it comes to all of this, leaving the men with no options AT ALL. Meanwhile, Emma is sitting here continuing to ask for more. How far will it go before men unite and push back? When it does happen it will not be good for anybody involved.

    • Steven Ingram on November 28, 2018 at 1:41 am

      Your absolutely correct, there isn’t a state government in the US that doesn’t hand all the power to the female from day one. Unless a mother is decided completely unfit she has the power to kick a man out of his house and make him homeless in a matter of days. She can take his children to another country if she likes and unless the guy has thousands to fight her in court there isn’t a thing he can do to stop her. Why is 50/50 custody so taboo? Why does a man become a 2nd rate citizen the moment a woman files for divorce. Why is divorce the number one factor in male suicide? Men are completely defenseless to divorce and children are used as pawns in all this.

  13. Steven Bruce Ingram on November 28, 2018 at 1:26 am

    You should be ashamed of yourself for writing this. Men are treated as complete underdogs when divorce takes place. They are treated as second class citizens and all their rights are taken from them the moment a women decides she is unhappy and a divorce is initiated. Any comments on why men are 9 times more likely to commit suicide after a divorce? Our divorce courts are completely one sided and many (most men) are never given the opportunity to be respectable, stand up fathers from day one. You make me sick. I was handed divorce papers on a weds and homeless and jobless by Friday thanks to a one sided court system set up for females. I went from 100% dad to 20% dad in 3 days due to a corrupt and unfair system of government. With what money do you exspect father’s to fight this system? Where is it written in the law of right and wrong that a mother is automatically entitled to custody of the children. Again you should be ashamed of yourself for kicking dirt on a man who is already been beaten down by and insane system of intrusive government. Change my mind

  14. Chris on January 20, 2019 at 8:28 am

    It’s grossly unfair that fathers have to pay ample amounts of their own income, through the legal system whether it be via lawyers, courts or mediators, to have custody or visitation rights to their kids. When fathers aren’t prepared to live a life a poverty to fight for their kids time and to then get judged and stigmatised as ‘selfish’ and ‘self centred’ by the opposite sex, goes against everything that is both morally and socially acceptable. It is unfair to have one party (predominantly males) funding a legal system fighting for kids and the other living a life of ‘entitlement’ and as a result of this. It is disappointing to read mothers, having the audacity to pass judgement on a father because he is not prepared to live in poverty brought on by a family court system that is unfair from the get go and constantly fuelled by an egotistic and vengeful ex spouse. If mothers complain fathers aren’t interested in their kids, make the family court system free, better yet enforce equal custody by default – let mothers prove why the father shouldn’t be around for the kids – instead of the inverse. Then watch the fathers step up to the plate for their kids. To expect a father to spend in excess of 5 or 6 figures on an industry that thrives on condescending men’s emotions to get to the mans wallet ( based primarily on gender prejudice where the male is basically behind ‘by default’) and then throw ‘criticism’ in his direction for his ability to father, just shows how ‘entitled’ and ‘self centred’ woman of the 21st century have become. Ergo, if they did actually care for the welfare of their children to have a father in their lives there would of been a fair level playing field ‘enforced’ from the get go.

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